Hi Lucy, and welcome to Brand Your Passion.
Hello. It's lovely to be here. Thank you so much for having me.
You are so welcome. It’s lovely to have you here.
The people and I have already heard all about what you are up to right now. But I would love to know a little bit about how your creative journey started, and then we'll get into how you got from there to here.
So have you always identified as a creative? When did that come into your life?
I think I always was a creative, but I was a creative in a family of sports people, which is very, very funny to me and to them.
My mom has this story, like my parents really pushed for me to get into a lot of sport as a kid, and I'm just not a sports person and that's fine, I now have a great appreciation for sport, but at the time I was not.
I was always drawing, always painting, plasticine was a big deal for me, I was super enamored with Sailor Moon and would try and trace them off the TV into my colouring books and stuff like that. But this all sort of culminated with the sport not enjoying, and my creativeness, in one day after school, I got my local primary schools little newsletter, and in the back of it it had portraiture graphite pencil art classes. And me being a very precocious 10 year old, showed this to my mom and said, “I think this should be my sport instead”, and I just haven't stopped.
You just have treated art as your sport ever since.
Well, yeah. Actually, like I see a sports like physiotherapist for my drawing arm now, so I've really come full circle as well.
So you did the classes, and did that kickstart your illustration journey from there?
It did. My first mentor was with local artist Glenda Wise, who's a watercolour artist. She was mentored by Arthur Streeton, which I didn't find out until like two years into drawing with her. I was like, "Who's paint brushes are them on the wall?" and she's like, "oh, Arthurs, he was my mentor." I didn't think anything of it because I was 12, and then like years later when I was studying, I'm like, "oh, wow!"
So I was very lucky to be mentored by her, along with a lot of other local children. It just lit a fire in me. This thing, it brought me so much joy, but I didn't know what drawing looked like, and how I was trained to draw was very traditional, very draftsmanship orientated.
But from there I got super into anime and manga, which feels like a rite of passage for every alt girl from a small town. I got super into comics. I got super into everything else. So I would just study the art in that and bring that back.
This thing, it brought me so much joy, but I didn't know what drawing looked like
And then I was a terrible student. I hit a point in my VCE where I was like, “I wanna draw for a job.” I'd met a couple of adult graphic designers and I was sort of like, "there's something there but I can't do it here."
And within the space of four weeks, I overhauled my GPA, I got into a semi-private, VC-only high school closer to the CBD, and then I went, did a diploma, did a degree in illustration, and that sort of determined it.
After that, I was just like, “okay, cool. I can draw forever now.” And that's just sort of how I did it. And then after all of that, I tripped and fell into video game development, which it turns out very badly, needs 2D people to do stuff.
So you went to school for illustration, then did you start freelancing and doing illustration work straight away, or did you get into game development? Tell me a little bit about that journey.
Yes and no. So my illustration journey–I've been told it's typical now, and looking back, I'm like, “oh yeah, that's bog standard and that feels good.” – but at the time it was absolutely terrifying and I had no idea what I was doing.
So getting into the illustration as an industry, I was really lucky. We had a former art director as one of our lecturers in my bachelor's degree of illustration, and she said, straight up, “you're going to have to do graphic design freelance work to subsidize your illustration work and you're going to have to make a brand for yourself.” That I feel like will come up later.
And it was like, “how do I get graphic design work?” Because at the time, Tumblr was huge, but I was in Australia. At the time, remote work isn't what it is now, so it was like, “well, I don't really wanna move to the US and go do like story boarding at Cartoon Network. That sounds amazing, but it's a bit out of reach, so what's my version of that?”
And the teacher very kindly told us, well, it's freelancing. You get an agent if you can, and do all the grunt work beneath as many art directors as you can until you find what sort of matches where, and create your portfolio along the way for the work that you would like to get or that you enjoy doing the most.
So that's sort of how that started for me in my last year of my art school journey. I was also working casually part-time for a certain bath bomb company but it was pretty cool. And just because it was so much smaller then than what it is now in Australia, I met the CEO and she was like, "I really like your drawings, do you wanna do the staff Christmas cards? Do you wanna do like, I'm gonna talk to people in the UK, let's see if we can set you up with doing stuff there."
The UK stuff didn't end up happening, but I started doing Christmas cards for all the staff and they would get it printed and send it out and they would credit me every single time. And then because of that experience, I took that to an agent and she started setting me up in all these different places, doing these different things.
My mom at the time was a barista and one of her customers was the art director for World Vision Australia, and he was like, "yeah, I need a junior" so that's how I started getting into corporate graphic design very, very fast.
It's very much typical when you start out in these things, nothing happens for months, and then when it all happens, it just pours. I remember feeling equal parts relieved and incredibly overwhelmed.
I remember feeling equal parts relieved and incredibly overwhelmed.
I was actually gonna ask you about like the World Vision and Lush clients cause I'd seen them on your website and I was curious about how they had come about, and it sounds like it was just being in the right place at the right time and having those networks.
Yeah. I cannot stress enough, I was very lucky, very, very early on in my career that I met these people, but also that the places that they worked at were smaller at that time, which allowed me to have very human interactions with them. That’s something that is my number one advice I give to juniors now, or it's something that I try and keep with me when I'm at networking things and all of that, is that you can be the best artist in a room but if in the kindest way possible, if you're an asshole, no one wants to work with you. For reasons that relate to, you're just not gonna be friendly to be around day in and day out. But also, like, I don't know if I can collaborate with you, I don't feel safe collaborating with you, I don't feel open and vulnerable to share my ideas or even just noodle on something together.
So for me, it felt very organic. I love people and I very clearly love to talk. So for me it's very much an extension of that. But again, it's kind of a brand. I want to be nice to people, not just because I want to do cool stuff and draw silly little drawings for them, but also because I want to have my branded reputation. When people are recommending people, they can go, “well, this person has got this, this, and this, but Lucy's also just really good to work with.” That to me, especially as I've gotten older and more comfortable in my art career, I want that to be something that's associated with me, that I'm good people to work with. And hopefully I am. I like to think that I am, but hopefully I am.
I want to be nice to people, not just because I want to do cool stuff and draw silly little drawings for them, but also because I want to have my branded reputation.
I'm sure you are. If people are saying that you are, then I'm sure that you are! And I think people definitely underestimate the power of that just being a good person can actually go a really long way. Your brand is reputation, that's what it is. It's what you're known for, what people think of when they think of your name, or they see your name somewhere.
So if when someone recommends you or they hear your name and all of the things that come up are positive about how they've had a really fun time, it's been really easy, they love talking to you, that is great branding. Being a nice, great, fun person is powerful.
It's branding without like some of the capitalist ickiness that can come with making yourself as a brand. It's pretty easy. But also it's a way to brand yourself that makes you look inward, which is always nice. The self-care person in me really likes that.
It's a way to brand yourself that makes you look inward, which is always nice.
Yeah, definitely. And it sounds like also what contributed to getting some of those early clients is also you just putting your hand up and saying "hi, I'm Lucy and this is what I do" so that those people obviously knew that you were available for that kind of work. And also saying yes to those projects, right?
Being open and saying “heck yeah, I'll try that. I'll make some Christmas cards, I'll do this thing for World Vision,” and then that compounds over time. That's awesome.
Yeah, it's that- oh, I'm really gonna show how millennial I am- but it's that Hamilton thing of don't throw away your shot. You've got one for some clients, sometimes.
There are some things that will come back in different ways and in different forms, but early on in your career, if you have a client approach you that is someone that excites you, the project excites you, you cannot let those insecure feelings or that anxiety be like, "don't do this." They've approached you for a reason and it's because they wanna work with you. So embrace that. Have a bit of a anxiety moment after you've sent the email saying, "I would love to work with you how does Monday sound?”
And then you're freaking out in the background afterwards.
That's when you put on grand designs and if you're me, you just have a very strong cup of tea. Yes.
Okay, so you got these first initial clients and got into illustration. You mentioned that your tutor – which I'm so impressed that they were talking to you already about your portfolio and your brand and all of that, because I hear so many people talk about how they got none of that at school which is really unhelpful. So I'm very impressed that you got that – But she was talking about having a brand and working on that. So is that when you first started thinking about your brand and what did that look like? Did you do design, did you do any strategy? Tell me about that.
So it's funny that you mentioned that no one does this because they don't. That's my spicy hot take on art schools.
She went out of her way to dedicate portions of her class to this because she realised it was not happening. She was excellent.
The first time that this, I think, sprung in her mind that we weren't having these broader discussions about this and that we weren’t talking amongst ourselves, was we had a student exhibition and we were asked as part of a mini assignment, to write an artist statement about yourself.
Now, writing a cover letter is pretty bloody hard on a good day. A little letter cover about yourself, your very personal artwork that is condensed to an elevator pitch and maybe a couple of lines after that about yourself and about the work that you produced. So none of us had any idea what we were doing.
She told us, "I'm not naming names, but I got back some artist statements that were two pages long, which this isn't your fault. This clearly is not, this is a failure on us. So let's start with an artist statement."
And then after artist's statement, at the time, I think I mentioned earlier, Tumblr was bloody huge. There were so many Tumblr famous artists that are now very legitimate, very established, they do some really cool things. They were just starting out, but something that I noticed with them – and my friends who I still draw and collaborate with now, we all noticed was – they, from the get go, they were still figuring out their stuff, but they knew that they had to have a logo, a business card, maybe a little merch store, because they were getting all this traffic, so they had to divert it somewhere to make money and to their portfolio.
So we would look at that, bring it back to this lecturer, and it was like, “okay, this is the modern version of this. Let's start building this with something that's like an Australian- because I'm an Australian- relevant career.”
So after that we did a response to a brief assignment. I remember I was really just feeling my emo oats and I submitted a redraw of a Paramore album.
Oh my God. Amazing.
Yes. Hayley Williams, if you are listening, I would love to draw for you. Please. And thank you.
If Hayley Williams is listening, I'm gonna lose my mind
If Hayley Williams is listening to this podcast, Hi, we love you.
Biggest stans of all time.
Yep. Second of all, hair dye company, great. Thirdly, we would like to work with you
Our official pitch to Haley Williams, the end.
We are very nice, please hire us.
Speaking of branding, we just had to do these assignments and then it was, “okay, how do these assignments fit in with what you wanna put out there on the internet to represent you or in a portfolio?” Okay, you can use a Tumblr as a portfolio, but you have to lay out your Tumblr in a way that's readable. So it was very building blocks of that kind of thing.
Then we had my favourite class, which I've been told nobody else got, this class block was three hours long and it was set yourself up as a sole trader and get an ABN. And get your tax file information set up so that way you can do paid work and not have the government down for unpaid income tax. She was like, "because I know a bunch of you are doing PayPal commissions for Americans and Canadians and Japanese people and everything, you will get found out."
Her name is Annie. I've forgotten her last name, but yeah, Annie was awesome.
Well, hey Annie for doing that because yeah, at Design School I never had any of that stuff in our classes and nobody that I know learnt any of that stuff. So I am so impressed with her!
Every day I cling onto this knowledge. I have people messaging me now being like, “how do you set up your sole trader status and stuff.” I'm like, “well, I learned when I was 20, so let's see if this holds up,” sort of thing.
But yeah, so it just went from there.
And because we were doing that, I was looking around and everything around this time as well because I liked what a lot of the artists were doing. But I wanted something a bit more slick for myself in the beginning. And because I wanted my art to very much fit into a mold – which is something that I have broken a bit more out of in terms of pushing myself and everything and what I create online versus for myself – I wanted something slicker. This is the time where Instagram was also emerging. So really encasing myself in amber with this.
But how can I make things look professional so people are like, in the kindest way possible, “this person's not just doing art commissions on the internet. I can put them in an office” because I knew at the time, I have bills to pay. I can draw all these really fun things for myself and for others, that's cool. But what happens if all my Tumblr commissions go away? I'm gonna need a job where I go into an office.
I can draw all these really fun things for myself and like for others, that's cool. But what happens if all my Tumblr commissions go away?
I wanted the rebrand. So I actually started studying how, at the time, makeup influencers were branding their YouTube accounts and Instagrams. I noticed they were using certain colour palette setups, they would only associate with certain brands that they felt would represent them as a brand, and they would use certain filters for certain things. Their grid layouts became very important. Their websites would reflect that grid. They would have a business email. They wouldn't put their phone number on the internet, stuff like that. And I was like, “there's something here that I think really resonates with the fact that I want an established career.” At the time, I wanted a very nine to five in-office structure. This, I think, fits that. And that was the beginning of it.
My work was very, very pink and girly and feminine at the time, so it was pretty easy for me to slot into something like that. And from there it was just a process of chopping and changing. So that's how I got started.
there's something here that I think really resonates with the fact that I want an established career.
That's amazing and I'm impressed that you took it upon yourself as well to research that and take it seriously and find out for yourself what is working, what is not working. I think it's a good testament to you that you did that.
And that's something that a lot of people can learn from now is, do the research, see what people are doing, see what's working, see what's not working, and look at your own stuff and see, "okay, this part's working, this part's not, here's what I can change, here's what I can adapt." and then move forward from there.
So how has that changed until now? You have a beautiful logo now. I assume you drew that as an illustrator. So how was that process of rebranding or redesigning your brand to what it is now?
I'd gotten to a point where everything was so slick and polished and shiny, it actually didn't feel authentic, and if I changed anything, it was so starkly different. It didn't look good.
With that as well, online internet trends change. We had the pivot to video – anyone who's ever worked with a Facebook adjacent thing knows how painful that was. Or even if you were just a user, honestly that was painful. So a lot of new different things have to happen. And just like with fashion, art trends change as well, art movements throughout history have shown us this time and time again.
I felt that I was really good at replicating other brands. I wasn't good at being myself.
I also wasn't that person anymore. I felt that I was really good at replicating other brands, I wasn't good at being myself. And I noticed when I wasn't being myself my traffic and engagement were down, which does mean less moohlahs. It also meant I didn't feel good going on social media and I didn't know how to adapt and I actually started feeling really crummy about branding online in general.
I noticed when I wasn't being myself my traffic and engagement were down, which does mean less moohlahs. It also meant I didn't feel good going on social media and I didn't know how to adapt and I actually started feeling really crummy about branding online in general.
But I knew I needed something. I was starting to do talks, I was starting to do game dev work as well, and I was like, “I need a hub that isn't Twitter.” Game devs love Twitter, they use it as their version of LinkedIn. I'm using Twitter a lot and I'm thinking about that and how that looks to other people and how I come across. It's much more casual there, that's just what the vibe is. How do I translate this and who I am as a person and how personable I am into an authentic brand?
How do I translate this and who I am as a person and how personable I am into an authentic brand?
And that became like, “okay, you're an illustrator, let's have illustrated assets. What do you like? Like what do you like and what do you think would represent it?”
I'm obsessed with cryptozoology – it's complete junk science – but I love that. I love the Loch Ness monster, I think my only Google alert is for the Loch Ness monster- which really says a lot about me and like I'm obsessed with all of that.
The Jackalope's really cute, I love Jackalopes, I have a Jackalope tattoo that's pretty iconic looking – let's draw something with that and let's see if we can get something out of that.
And then the other assets – because I want assets in different areas of this website – needs to flow on and I was really vibing with the resurgence of Art Nouveau, but also spooky witchy things coming up. I wear a lot of black and I'm a little spooky myself, but I didn't want it to be a goth portfolio website because that's not me either. So I was like, “okay, let's make this a little bit rock and roll, but a bit softer.”
It just sort of started taking shape from there. I narrowed it down to some colours that felt like me, but weren't too overly girly and feminine because I'm not that anymore. It felt a bit fun as well. It just felt authentic.
From there I developed my website. I developed branding I rolled out across all things. I also reassessed what social media I focused on. Instead of trying to do everything, I think I only do three now, which has been so much better for my mental health. I use Twitter, I'm getting back into Instagram because I don't know if you know this, but someone purchased Twitter and they've not been doing a very good job.
And I'm getting back into Instagram because they're putting the focus back on photos again and also I missed having a nice looking grid and my family can easily see my art this way, so that's kind of nice. And then as well, I use TikTok but not in a way that I adhere to any content schedule.
The art program that I predominantly use, Procreate, has an amazing feature where you can export 30 second time lapses of something that you drew.. And I just export that and I'm like, "if I'm gonna use this, the algorithm on this app is super punishing unless you post like a hundred times a day, I'm not gonna do that. I don't have the stamina. So instead I'm just gonna export it with some cute lo-fi music, just when I want to” and that's the strategy for that. In that it's not a strategy, very intentionally. Because my brain hurts.
And then the other two, like on my Twitter, it's very much like a casual cool catch up with me, but focused on art and game development, and then the occasional silly talk from me about interests I have. And dog photos .
I also reassessed what social media I focused on. Instead of trying to do everything, I think I only do three now, which has been so much better for my mental health.
Of course .
That happens a lot. And then Instagram is purely art that I want to showcase on that platform. And for the both of those, I have a post schedule as well for art. So yeah, it's become that. I'm much happier with this way of doing things.
I think it's got a lot to do with my philosophy with working in development and professionally in general is as an artist or as a creative, once you release something, especially digitally out into the world, it no longer belongs to you. People put their own opinions on it, their own feelings and feedback on it.
Sometimes people save it to their desktop and set it as their desktop background, that's really nice and warm and fuzzy. Sometimes people do kind of nefarious things with it, that's not good. But ultimately, it no longer belongs to you. It's up for interpretation. So for me, this allows me to choose what I release out into the world while also having a little bit of a barrier as well, I guess.
as an artist or as a creative, once you release something, especially digitally out into the world, it no longer belongs to you.
It's a very healthy, healthy approach and I like that.
Yeah, thank you. It was not healthy for a very long time, so I'm glad I'm here, honestly.
I think a lot of people go through that process and it's amazing that you've found a way to make it work for you.
And it sounds like whether you like intentionally knew this or not, you did a lot of strategic thinking or what I would call brand strategy before you did any of the actual doing. You were thinking about, like you said, “What feels authentic to me? What do I really like? How do I wanna come across? What do I want people to think? What's gonna feel fun for me to do? What platforms do I enjoy showing up on? How's that gonna work for me?” That's some really strategic stuff that is awesome.
So did you think, "I'm doing strategy" or was it just things that you were thinking of along the way?
At first I was like, it is strategy time. I was very focused. I was so type A about it. And now I'm just so much more relaxed on it. Because if I get too intense on it, then it doesn't feel like me anymore, it feels like a robot version of me, and that's not what I wanna put out there.
I do it in blocks. So for a social media content calendar, I'm like, “this is what times I'm posting my art.” That's how I approach it. When I'm doing like the amazing brand checklist that you have on your beautiful website, I like that because it's a conversation rather than “this is what you're doing, this is how you're doing it” like a war table. I need a warm and fuzzy conversation to plan out how I want the world to look at me.
if I get too intense on it, then it doesn't feel like me anymore, it feels like a robot version of me, and that's not what I wanna put out there.
I need a warm and fuzzy conversation to plan out how I want the world to look at me.
As you were talking about that, you were talking about how you do development, your own work, and design or illustration work for games. I'm interested in how, especially when you were thinking about how you wanted to show up and all of that, how you balance those different audiences that you have or different results that you're wanting to get. Because some you're trying to get clients, some you're maybe trying to get contract work or something, or maybe you're trying to get people to buy your work.
So how did you think about, or how are you thinking about, if at all, balancing those different parts of your brand?
It's actually my biggest anxiety as a person with a brand, right? Because ideally everything's very neat and fits into one little box and it's pretty nice. I don't, so I'm trying to find comfort in that.
ideally everything's very neat and fits into one little box and it's pretty nice. I don't, so I'm trying to find comfort in that.
But in a game space, it's great because most artists, especially younger artists in the industry, predominantly used just art station for their portfolio, or they'll use a Tumblr and that's it. Whereas I have a very branded website. I have a Twitter, I have all these things, so I look different just when you hold them up two up against each other. Not- that's not saying I'm doing it better- it just means I'm doing it different. There's an immediate difference. So therefore you are gonna have an immediate opinion on how I'm presenting myself.
That has worked in my favour. It's also worked against me at times. I did a big website cleanup at the start of the year, so it was like, “put your game section in one area. If people wanna see the specific highlights of that work you've done, have a private offline portfolio that you can send to them.”
Because of course in game development, NDAs are a big thing. And sometimes if you say, "I have a private portfolio" that's a lot more warm and fuzzy for someone who is on the art team to hear, but is in charge of making those NDA decisions.
For design, I keep it separate as well. And then illustration, I treat very much as a very personal part of my thing and I just kind of throw it out there as being very much me, even when it is commissioned client work.
But then again, if you're commissioning me for client work rather than contracting me for game development, the inherent work of illustration, it feels a lot more personal when both people post it because it's their project, their idea, their concept reinterpreted, using my taste, my skill, and my vision with it, working with them.
It's already a bit more personal than saying like, "Hey, I worked on this game." That allows a pretty clear visual separation as well, so that that helps. Is segmenting like this the best idea? I don't know. But I also, the more 2D artists in my predicament I meet, the more I'm of the consensus that this might just be the best way right now to do this. I'm sure someone will come up with a better way of doing this and I cannot wait to meet them so I can absolutely do that.
Yeah. And you said "maybe it's not ideal to have all these different things", but I think it's very normal for creatives. Maybe there are different industries where it's normal to be like, "I do this one thing for this one certain person," but creatives are like, "I do five to 10 different things for all these different people, because I love it all!” You’re classic multi-hyphenate people, right?
Did you ever have the personality hats in primary school? It's like that. It's like, “look at all these hats I'm wearing. Some jobs I maybe wear one or two. And in this job I'm wearing eight and I would like to have less, but unfortunately my personality and career have said no.”
Honestly my work now as a 2D artist and illustrator in games is one day you'll be doing user interface icons, 200 icons that focus on readability rather than making the Mona Lisa, but tiny. And then the next day it's “Luce, we need concept development for this character but it has to like be done in a couple of days." And I'm like, "great for first pass." And then after that it'll be, "Hey, we actually need key art that we're gonna actually release and say that it's concept art." And that's when I get to do a proper fair dinkum illustration of my work.
But it changes so much. Those are just three things that I could do in my job at any given day. Sometimes it's nowhere near as glamorous as that, like doing Steam capsules which I mentioned in our talk offline and merchandise. Even for game studios –it's so cute – the second they get a 2D artist in every time, three months in it's like "we can make t-shirts." And it's like, "yes, yes you can. Yes. You have that power now."
Amazing. So it definitely can be an advantage is what it sounds like you are saying.
And what I agree with is that it can feel like there's this pressure to niche down and just do this one thing and just be known for this one thing. But actually maybe as a creative for you and for some other people, it might be the most advantageous thing for you to do to just embrace all the things that you love and all the things that you are really good at, and figure out a way to just be clear about that so that you can get all these opportunities that maybe need you to be able to switch different hats or be able to jump into these different roles when you want to. It can be a good thing too.
It can, it can.
It can release that pressure of feeling like “I have to cull out these five things that I love to just do this one.”
Also sometimes you might wanna put the things that you love into a new space, and sometimes you don't. Unfortunately, 15 year old me would be really disappointed with this, but you don't get offers to do band album artwork every day of the week.
15 year old me would be really disappointed with this, but you don't get offers to do band album artwork every day of the week.
Or you don't get offers to do a cool t-shirt design for a game studio every day of the week- unless you're very, very wildly successful in those very niche fields. Don't let your anxiety stop you from saying yes to that. Just do it. Just do it and figure it out because you don't know how good your art is gonna look on those things until you're in the process of actually making it. Or just like other creative things, you dunno how good your type setting's gonna look in those situations.
you don't know how good your art is gonna look on those things until you're in the process of actually making it.
Yeah, definitely. Especially early on in your career too, if you are trying to figure out what you love or just getting onto the ladder or getting into the industry, then saying yes, trying lots of different things can be the best way to get started.
Okay, so to wrap things up, I have a couple of questions for you. The first is, what do you think is the biggest lesson that you have learned so far about branding your passion?
I have two, and I'll keep them short. One is please learn what income tax is. If you wanna do anything, my God, please learn what it is.
And my second piece of advice, which is adjacent to that, is also learn what copyright laws are and what permissions actually mean, because it's all fun and games until you get a cease and desist.
These are the boring lessons, but please learn them.
Yeah but they're very good ones! Or if you are not gonna learn them, at least get an accountant or a lawyer who does know them and can tell you.
Disclaimer, I don't know what math is. I have an accounting service that does mine for me.
Yeah. I have an accountant also cause that is not my area of expertise.
And last question is, if you could give other creatives a piece of advice about building and growing their brand, what do you think that that would be?
Be authentic, but remember what you put out there other people will interpret. And they may interpret that in a way that doesn't sit comfortably with you or that you don't even like or is incorrect. But on the flip side, they may interpret it in a positive way. They might really vibe with it. They might be like, “yes, that person's friend shaped, they are perfect for this project.”
So make things authentic, be yourself, but look at yourself as a brand and be like, “okay, what's relevant for me to put pop out there, and that also allows me – especially if you're a marginalised person – that allows me to be safe, but also have fun on the internet?”
A beautiful lesson, a beautiful piece of advice and one that I think everybody needs a reminder of.
So thank you so much and thank you so much for this whole episode. I have loved just talking to you and learning about you and hearing all the things that you've learned along your journey so far. And I know that people are going to love hearing this and lots of other artists who are in similar places to you or earlier in their journey or even further along, will learn so much from this. So I really, really appreciate it.
Thank you so much for talking to me today. This was really fun. This was really cozy. This was a great time.
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